The Glory Days Are Over

[Stare]

CREDIT: www.lordsofpain.net

# There was a meeting between Vince McMahon, Kevin Dunn, and Paul Heyman in regards to changes being made with ECW. A decision has been made to move away from all of the old ECW concepts, characters, fans and everything else. Instead, ECW will just be another brand for WWE, simply with the ECW name. In McMahon's eyes, the old ECW fan base is dead and largely gone, and he's going to go forward with things with that in mind. The crowd's behavior at last Saturday's ECW house show really changed his mind on things.

# Paul Heyman was not at the Gorilla Position on Tuesday night as Vince McMahon was the main man running things. Heyman mainly kept to himself over on the sidelines. Although, when someone would come up to him and ask him for feedback, he was open and gave his opinion. Other than that, it was more obvious than ever before that he is no longer the "mad genius behind ECW."

# Paul Heyman actually put together some of last Tuesday's ECW show, however, when Vince McMahon and the rest of WWE creative team saw what he came up with, they tore apart most of Heyman's ideas. Although, Heyman booked Sabu's match and the RVD/Angle angle. The rest of the show - the middle portion - came from McMahon and his minions on the WWE creative team.

# Several ECW wrestlers from the glory days were not at Tuesday's show. Basically, the ECW individuals you saw on television were the only ECW individuals who were actually at the show. The likes of Balls Mahoney, Stevie Richards, Justin Credible, Francine, etc ... stayed home.

# The general feeling by people in position of power in WWE is, "Why do we need a Danny Doring, Justin Credible, Steven DeAngelis, the referees, etc ... when we have fifty workers in Ohio Valley Wrestling and Deep South Wrestling?

[Stare]

This is so fucked up. Apparently Vince Mcmahon is an idiot who obviously doensnt listen to the fans. Heaven forbid you remember how much better One Night Stand 1 was then ONS2. Or, maybe you'd hear everyone chanting "You Sold Out" to Heyman, and realize it's because they fans want the original ECW back.

This has really pissed me off, and it's made me lose a lot of respect. I've heard that the WWE Writing Team and Vince had power trips, but this is ridiculous.

I know you don't get to hear me pissed off about wrestling too often, but this is eating away at me. The fans want ECW for what it claims to be "EXTREME".

[Ben]

i agree, its name is EXTREME championship wrestling (ECW) so they should be extreme
i only watched 1 episode of ecw's weekly show over the interent because i dont get
ECW where i live, and i sorta feel like i have an advantage that i dont get tempted
to watch another dried out ECW show, but if they cut loose and went to the extreme again, id be sitting by my comp every tuesday to watch it

[Faster Pussycat!]

I hope New Jack comes in and kills Vince, like a one man Manson style killing.

[ChadClassic]

I'd love for New Jack to just come in period. Vince McMahon is a mud-butt.

[Stare]

Yeah, New Jack was awesome.

I'm glad the WWE has utilized Sabu like they have, and used him for key feuds. That is one thing I applaud the WWE for.

But, the ECW contracts were only for a year that were given to wrestlers, and I bet after the year has passed, most of them will be gone.

[brockandsable]

floorstare said:

This is so fucked up. Apparently Vince Mcmahon is an idiot who obviously doensnt listen to the fans. Heaven forbid you remember how much better One Night Stand 1 was then ONS2. Or, maybe you'd hear everyone chanting "You Sold Out" to Heyman, and realize it's because they fans want the original ECW back.

This has really pissed me off.....

But the million dollar question is will you keep watching? Will you keep attending show and buying merchandise? If the answer to any of these questions is "yes" than McMahon has you right where he wants you: Pissed off but still endulging in his product.

But what can we do? We are wrestling fans and we need our fix. He's got a monopoly on the sport we grew up loving and until another billion dollar genius emerges and presents some worthwhile competition, we're just going to have to deal with it.

[eCo]

Ok, that's it!!!!

For the past few months, I lost a lot of respect for Vince McMahon. This is over the whole fact that whenever Vince had something good coming for the WWE, HE GUTS IT!!!

Seriously, this could have drawn back a whole lot of fans from the old wrestling days, and over an assumption that wasn't true, Vince is making the decission to gut the whole nature of ECW.

But this is what pisses me off the most:

The general feeling by people in position of power in WWE is, "Why do we need a Danny Doring, Justin Credible, Steven DeAngelis, the referees, etc ... when we have fifty workers in Ohio Valley Wrestling and Deep South Wrestling?

This is the number 1 thing that annoys me about the WWE right now. Instead of using the value of names the WWE already has, they invest too much of it in this "new generation" of talent. At the pace the WWE is going, there is a good chance that in a few years there will not be a familiar name in a WWE ring. Too much interest is being spent on this "new talent". The WWE has names right now that could have never been touched by the WWE 10 years ago, names that ALREADY HAVE VALUE to them. But instead, because they weren't WWE oriented, the WWE guts them.

I will admit that for the past year when I was defending the McMahon's actions, I was just defending their actions because I felt that I had to display my colors, regardless if I was right or not, but much of the time, people such as NIN and Chadwick were right that whole time.

[Stare]

ECW has been better the past couple of weeks since the apparent "charge" Vince has taken, but instead of setting out to create something different and unique like he initially said he would do, he's just made another WWE TV Show, not an ECW one.

The MAIN reason that ECW has still not been accepted the way Vince has wanted it to be is because fans tune into ECW to see hardcore and extreme matches, and now their has to be a stipulation for an "Extreme Rules Match"? Yet, they still air the "New Breed Unleashed" commercials that show guys going against Barbed wire ropes and through tables stacked up.

If the WWE had never marketed ECW as "E C F'n W", then expectations would've been met, but they said it'd be different.


The number 1 thing that pisses me off, Ecos, is the fact that Vince never even gave the ECW way a chance, and considered it "unsuccessful

[Reaper]

No ECW has not been BETTER for the past few weeks. At no point should ECW be placed on any of the banners, ring aprons, entry ways, or anything else. What I see is WWE's new show.. something to not be as good as Raw, but also something to not be as horrible as Smackdown. The general idea that ECW would be back, was great, EVERYBODY got pumped about it, because lets face it, WWE has lost its goddamn nutsack and are shadows of a former era that they are too goddamned afraid to go back to. Theres no creativity in it, theres barely any pride being put into the writing and you can see it, because theres barely any pride being put into the performances by the wrestlers.

When the wrestlers are only going out and wrestling because the fans are there and paid money, thats pretty bad. They don't appear to be doing for their enjoyment anymore. its more of a hassel.

Having said that this New ECW is just as fucked, because they didn't have to wait years to realize that everything was getting worse by the week. They found out basically up front. Heyman isn't writing..really, he isn't coaching the commentating.. AND ECW RULES NO LONGER APPLY. There was a fucking disqualification on so called ECW programming... WHAT THE FUCK!!!! The whole fucking premise of ECW was that there are no real rules, just basic shit. Use whatever you wanted/needed to get the win, and put on a beautiful piece of wrestling and/or spotfest.

It was over, people liked that idea... but now I found myself watching it and saying to myself.. "I'm really not enjoying this... wheres the action... I've seen a million 'segments'...what, 3 matches?'... A DISQUALIFICATION!!!... well at least the Main Event was a WWE hardcore match."

yeah thats right a WWE hardcore match. Seriously folks... they should have brought back the WWE hardcore title, gave it a little more prestige, and been done with it. The shit I see on Tuesday nights is NOWHERE close to what I either wanted to see or think is ECW. Its a few WWE guys having fun, with the ECW guys making it look like a fucking chore to go out there.. and to hell with that Kelly cunt, Women in ECW are supposed to be Eye Candy... but also be able to kick eachothers asses. Not go out there and strip down for no fucking reason other than to let Vinnie jack off in the back for 5 minutes.

The NEW ECW is fucking bullshit, and I doubt I'll be watching it for very much longer, whether it be by my doing or by them pulling the plug.

[Stare]

You speak the truth.

But, in contrast to the debut show and the following one, the past two shows have been "better shows". Nothing they are doing is ECW, besides Sabu pulling something out ever-so-often.

[Aladdin]

I agree with Stare about the shows being better as of late. Still, what Reaper said was true. There really is no point of having a thrid brand just like the other two. It's overkill. And, it's also tainting the ECW name.

SD! is better than Raw. That's the only incorrect thing you said, Reaper.

[Reaper]

Nobody gives 2 shits about Smackdown and its lackluster roster of players that aren't getting used in anyway that fits them. Fact is Smackdown ISN'T the better show because if it was so much better, people would be watching it. Besides, they bank on matches that involve Henry or Khali or Rey Mysterio overcoming the odds.. meanwhile the undercard is laughable. You got guys like Finlay who can fight and wrestle with the best of them barely winning with a fuckin stick and a midget. You got Lashley going out there and instead of being a monserous force, he's barely scraping by at times and using a spear... HOW ORIGINAL. Kennedy came back and hasn't been up to snuff, tag team championships are just there as usual, the cruiserweight title STILL doesn't mean jack shit, and all the star power of the show is put into basically 2 people now that Batista is back.

Fuck Smackdown. They should just combine the rosters, move ECW to Friday nights or something and just have Raw and ECW... and let ECW do its own thing. I mean you got Sabu busting his ass like usual, you Sandman out there beating people up with his stick... Justin Credible is the most talented jobber on the show, Tommy Dreamer goes from having a half assed program with Big Show but they dropped it to give him the belt. TOMMY DREAMER SHOULD STILL BE TRYING TO FIGHT HIM. Heyman is now ECW's answer to Vince McMahon, which is boring. Meanwhile wheres all the guys they contracted for ECW? All gone. Get them back, let heyman run the show and watch it shine like it should.

I'm fucking tired of everything being the McMahon way, because he's lost his fucking mind AND he's lost his fucking balls.

[Stare]

Smackdown would be a lot better show if the writers had a fucking clue.

A year ago, Ken Kennedy was going to be the next best thing. The guy was awesome on the mic, got over with the crowd, adn coudl ACTUALLY wrestle, in contrast to a lot of "entertainers" these days. But, what happens? The writing team decides it wouldn't make sense to put him in a worthwhile feud upon his return.

Had they actually made a big deal about his return instead of just randomly bringing him back out of nowhere, and then throwing him in nothing matches, and even recently making him lose to SPOILER ----> highlight --- > Matt Hardy , then he might've been made into something. Might as well give him the Title at Summerslam, and make him lose it a month later. They blew their load on the last big thing and now he's forever tainted.

Sorry, but the Kennedy thing pisses me off, cause people were awaiting his return, and the WWE didn't give it any respect. But what else is new?

As for Mysterio, this has been the worst title run EVER. He has lost more matches since winning the title than he has won. What the fuck?

[Aladdin]

The only aspect where SD! is lacking is its roster. That's plainly obvious. Raw gets legends, they get the Stone Colds and Rocks (when they return), and SD! is stuck with its very limited roster. They have 2 main event babyfaces, Rey & Batista, and 1 real main event heel, Booker T. But they can make use of what they've got well, by pushing the younger talent. This who i would put in the main event, upper midcard and lower midcard:

MAIN EVENT:
Rey
Batista
Booker
Taker (Needs to go back to being the biker and be more active.)
Finlay
Benoit (Needs a heel turn)

UPPER MIDCARD:
William Regal
Burchill
Lashley
Matt Hardy
Kennedy
Henry

LOWER MIDCARD:
All the cruisers.
All the tag teams.

That would be a decent group of people to build the show around. Sure, it doesn't have the star power that Raw has, but with decent storylines, they could all fit in where i placed them. Khali can be fired for all i care. SD! can't do anything about their roster, because apparently Vince doesn't want to send anyone from Raw to them, because of all the pre-emptions on UPN. So, they have to make use of what they've got, and they can have a believable bunch of characters in all of the categories.

The quality of the shows are much better on SD!. They produce good matches each week, and decent believable storylines. The whole Rey thing sucks, but to be honest, that's just a tiny part of the show at the moment, so it's not a big deal. Raw on the otherhand is all centered around fucking Vince and DX. I like DX, although I'm kinda getting tired of them already, but I'm sick of the same old Vince storyline. He sucks. He's over the top, gets lame cheap heat and makes out with all the hot divas to feed his ego. Seriously, who wants to see him with a diva? Who wants to see a 60 year old making out with a buff girl? No-one. Now, Raw's title scene has been built around Cena for the last year or so, with other people coming in and out every so often. Cena can't act for shit. He's a Rock wannabe and can't pull it off. His storylines are boring and predictable. Edge is a breath of fresh air and his title reign raised ratings, but then what happens, they take the title of him and put it on the supposedly biggest face in the company, who happen to get booed more than cheered. Great. Now Edge is champ again, but i can't stand him only facing Cena for the title, because when it's finished, the likely scenario will be Cena as champ. So, the rest of the show. You have Viscera and Haas stalking Lilian. That sucks. But then you have people like the Spirit Squad, getting wasted on the DX thing. You have Shelton Benjamin hardly ever making it on to the show. You have the best young talent in the company, Carlito, getting like 2 minutes of air time. And you have Johnny Nitro, the IC champ, being overshadowed by Melina, relying on her for his feuds.

Now, SD! uses its talent as much as it can, while still tending to the upper card feuds. Raw on the other hand, have so much talent but barely use it. Instead opting to have the shows focus on people who won't be around in a few years. Every other segment is either DX/Vince or Cena. That's bullshit.


And i agree whole heartedly about the Kennedy thing, Stare. Apparently he has a bad attitude now, though. So may be he's being punished. Dunno.

[Stare]

Wasn't Smackdown's main event Lashley vs. Booker for like . . . 3 weeks? And, Booker lost all the time, and now he's the number 1 contender? Eventhough they try to make it work with storylines, it just doesnt make sense.

Raw is a much better show than Smackdown, and you basically said it in the writing above.

You spent the beginning talking about how Smackdown could better utilize their roster, and then the rest of your statement was about how Raw doesn't use theirs well. That's not just a Raw thing, cause you showed us yourself how Smackdown could use their talent MUCH MORE efficiently. That's a WWE Thing, it's a McMahon thing, they rely on a couple of people to bring in the ratings, and when the ratings are good . . . it's because McMahon's "boy" did a good job, and when they're bad, it's cause of a storyline involving Carlito that McMahon doesnt like. I can not state this as a fact, but I think it's clear that Vince plays favorites. He credited ECW One Night Stand's success to John Cena for crying out loud!

Anyways, back on subject, the reason Raw is a lot better is because they have starpower, I'll be honest. If Smackdown had more starpower like they did a year and a half ago, they'd be rolling. But, if you take away Guerrero, Batista, Orton, Benoit, a rising star in Kennedy, and you make Taker appear half the time . . . your show is going to be hurting no doubt.

Though, I will change subjects once more and point out a mistake you made when you were showing how you would do the roster . . . you did the same thing Vince does and gave the cruiserweights no respect. Half the time, the good match you see on Smackdown is a cruiserweight match or involves them. If they would spotlight it more and actually create stars within the Cruiserweight Division (much like TNA does), it would give the title belt and the wrestlers in the division much more credibility.

[Aladdin]

I knowi ptu the cruiser pretty low, but that's realistically where they'd be placed.

What i was trying to say before was that SD! uses what they got, and try to hide their weaknesses, by exentuating their positives. They focus on the wrestling a lot more, because they have great workers.

Henry is a great example of showcasing positives. They've made him into a monster and they've done it well. I hate the guy but i think he's done a great job. They've limited his time in the ring, and let him simply destroy people. The whole Batista/Henry feud has actually been well done. The match will suck, but they'll keep it short, I'm sure.

The whole Lashlry/Booker feud was based on who was the better man. They had good matches and the storyline was fair. Now they're showing some continuity by having Regal and Finlay face Lashley for the US title, seeing as they were constantly getting involved with his matches. That's what SD! does well, they move forward. Raw's central storyline was been McMahon Vs. HBK for almost a year now. They've added HHH but it's still the same damn thing. It's fucking boring. The title scene revolves around Cena, he's never totally out of it. Whereas SD! keep things fresh. The title scene doesn't consist of the same two people every god damn month. They mainly change it up for each PPV. That's what i love. I remember in 2000, when The Rock had a new challenger each month, or he had some sort of combination of opponents, while he was the champ. The storylines that do go on for a while on SD!, are given limited time, not half the show. Taker/Khali gets like 10 mins each show. DX/ Vince get 45 mins at least.

Raw do not build up their undercard at all, really. They give them five minutes, and those people tend to be the more talented people. SD!, on the other hand, have a great storyline going with Lashley/Finlay/Regal for the midcard. They had a great feud between MNM/London& Kendrick, so they pay attention to the whole roster.

[Reaper]

For starters this arguement is already flawed, because you're praising Henry. He's always been the "monster" and hes always done the same shit over and over again. The difference is that now he is being more forceably shoved down our throats because there is and was a lack of talent when he came back into the fray. He still sucks, his work has NEVER changed, and nobody gives 2 shits about him. He could be gone tomorrow and nobody would notice.

Saying smackdown keeps things "fresh" is laughable. They're running Lashley against Finlay... STILL. Undertaker is gonna wind up fighting against Khali for awhile probably because they keep running him against Henry and Khali in the after show dark matches. Meanwhile Batista will fight against Henry to nobody's surprise or care, and where the hell is Mysterio? Does anybody even care anymore? Not really. So he'll face Booker T and maybe even lose and then what? He got jobbed out so many times that his holding the title holds about as much worth as an aluminum can.

The only reason the so called "Undercard" was given time to shine was because Lashley is the next main eventer, where as Finlay is stuck with a midget and a stick and going for US title land... and that will be it for him. Regal will be booked the same as always... doing next to nothing and being noticed for either being an asshole or comic relief. Kennedy is basically gonna get shit on for whatever reason, so I don't see him as a saving grace, and as far as the tag titles... useless like the cruiserweights. As a matter of fact, thats all thats going on with the tag titles anyway, a bunch of cruisers are going after it and trying to get people to care and its not working because theres 0 storyline.

You can groom the undercard for so long but nobody will notice them if all they do is get in the ring and fight. If theres no story, theres no interest. The only exception to the rule was Goldberg and he's the exception because the announcers busted their asses to put him over. They made a big deal out of his streak, so that just became his story. Now you can preach to me how much better the "talent" is on smackdown all you want, but that was never the issue. The issue was what show was better. Raw is a better show because they have storylines that the people were interested in. Cena being in the top stop for this long has worked, because people either tuned in to see him win, or they tuned in hoping he'd lose. Everybody chanted for DX, so they got a watered down version and its holding the general populations interest just fine. They've also got the Spirit Squad as, basically, the hired guns to do the bidding of McMahon, and on the outside of the bubble you had Edge slowly rising to the top. As far as the "undercard" again you have the Spirit Squad. Theres Carlito in this half assed love interest angle with Trish Stratus that people are kind of getting into. And Mick Foley and Ric Flair are going at eachother. Theres also this wild card angle with Lillian Garcia, Viscera and Haas. And I'm sure Benjamin is around somewhere.... Theres a little bit of everything going on for both shows, but Smackdown isn't capatalizing on it by not having storylines that are worth a damn. People are just not interested.

Now I'm really loving the "Modding" that's going on since this is the ECW thread

[eCo]

For the most part I agree with Aladdin. Just because he somewhat praised Mark Henry, that doesn't automatically flaw his arguement. He still brought up rational points. Overrall I think that SD! is the better show right now, because they do pay attention to their roster. Raw does not use their names efficiently. Right now the whole scene of Raw revolves around the DX vs McMahon angle, and it is the same thing every night. The Spirit Squad was just PLACED in the main event against DX so, HBK and HHH don't have any real opponments. I do admit that it is good to see Edge the Champ again, but how long will this Cena and Edge feud last, even though I always crack up when Cena rips on Lita. Even though I like Cena as a character, he doesn't seem to be taking the WWE anymore, mostly due to the fact that he has a large fan base that is against him. That's what made the feud between HHH and Cena REALLY dissapointing.

However Reaper is right about the outcome of SD!. Despite that SD! does use their names, it will only be for a brief amount of time. SD! goes through names fast and in a rapid matter in the upper mid card. Finlay will only be used for a limited amount of time, and Regal will only be used occasionally for cartoon-like purposes. Once Brooker T looses the belt, he will more likely be pulled out of the main event because of politics. Rey is actually someone who the WWE will put more investment in because of how well he adapted to the WWE, and how he was always in the main event picture since the age of Brock Lesnar. Unfortunately, he will always have this "underdog image" in which someone like Batista or Lashley will always come to the rescue for him.

It's just that the WWE always perfered a more cartoon image over their characters. People like Finlay, Shelton, Haas, and other mid card characters that come off as "athletes" don't last long in the WWE. Bobby Lashley is an exception because he is a "big guy".

[ddt]

# There was a meeting between Vince McMahon, Kevin Dunn, and Paul Heyman in regards to changes being made with ECW. A decision has been made to move away from all of the old ECW concepts, characters, fans and everything else. Instead, ECW will just be another brand for WWE, simply with the ECW name. In McMahon's eyes, the old ECW fan base is dead and largely gone, and he's going to go forward with things with that in mind. The crowd's behavior at last Saturday's ECW house show really changed his mind on things.

If the old ECW fan base was dead, how come at a lot of events there were ECW chants, before the idea of bringing it back came around?

# Paul Heyman was not at the Gorilla Position on Tuesday night as Vince McMahon was the main man running things. Heyman mainly kept to himself over on the sidelines. Although, when someone would come up to him and ask him for feedback, he was open and gave his opinion. Other than that, it was more obvious than ever before that he is no longer the mad genius behind ECW.

That doesn't make sense in the slightest. Vince needs to realise that Heyman created ECW and made it as great as it was.

# Paul Heyman actually put together some of last Tuesday's ECW show, however, when Vince McMahon and the rest of WWE creative team saw what he came up with, they tore apart most of Heyman's ideas. Although, Heyman booked Sabu's match and the RVD/Angle angle. The rest of the show - the middle portion - came from McMahon and his minions on the WWE creative team.

Why is there an ECW creative team? I'm sure Heyman knows what's best for each individual wrestler on the roster. Just give the man some money and say "Go". That's all that's needed.

# Several ECW wrestlers from the glory days were not at Tuesday's show. Basically, the ECW individuals you saw on television were the only ECW individuals who were actually at the show. The likes of Balls Mahoney, Stevie Richards, Justin Credible, Francine, etc ... stayed home.

Why bother going? They're only going to get jobbed.

# The general feeling by people in position of power in WWE is, "Why do we need a Danny Doring, Justin Credible, Steven DeAngelis, the referees, etc ... when we have fifty workers in Ohio Valley Wrestling and Deep South Wrestling?

Why? Because the ECW alumni are the wrestlers people pay to see. They are the names that built ECW.