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Post by eCo on Apr 11, 2005 23:46:40 GMT 1
This thread is created so that today's issues and topics can be discussed. This was posted in freeze dried because I don't want this to go far off topic. This thread was also made because it is putting effiecient use into one thread, instead of creating 4 different threads revolving around worldwide topics. Anything current can be discussed here about the world, the Pope, Iraq, Terri Shavio, or anything political. Any topic can be brought up at any time.
I'll start it off with the Terri Shavio (I have no idea how to spell her name) case. Did any of you believe it was nessesary to remove the feeding tube, or was it wrong for the goverment to decide it, and it should have been her parents decision?
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Post by Trent Matsunoshin on Apr 12, 2005 0:46:05 GMT 1
The government didn't decide it, they only upheld the husband's decision.
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Post by soulreaper on Apr 12, 2005 5:01:19 GMT 1
The "husband" should have forfeited his rights to her upon frolicking off with that other woman, to which those rights would have then been in the hands of the parents. There was no need to remove the tube at all, and now because of it, she died a grusome death that we aren't even allowed to administer to cold blooded murderers.
With all the documented actions of the husband (pre and post, especially not allowing the parents to see her one last time) and the fact that she wasn't as "vegetated" as we were led to first believe, to think that she SHOULD have been starved to death is laughable. To be honest it would have been more "humane" to take her out in the back of the building and plug her with a shot to the head.
Also as Trent stated, the government was only upholding the laws, and the courts were completely against her parents, so she was pretty much doomed. Apparently LIFE, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness aren't things that are held sacred anymore.
By the by, has anybody done any research on the judges that continually denied the parents, I hear that is an interesting bunch of info. I have yet to dabble in it, though.
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Post by Cactus on Apr 12, 2005 10:09:27 GMT 1
I know little of this cause but my loved ones know I am a DNR ( Do Not Resusitate sp)
Basically if I cannot breathe on my own and I am out cold etc in a vagitive state I do not want to live with machines doing everything for me.
15 years i belive it was that long is a long time to be like that and I applaud them letting her die as she was to have to quality of life.
It was a VERY inhumane way the let he die but now at long last she is in peace and out of pain
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Post by KillerSundin (Formerly HBK) on Apr 12, 2005 13:17:44 GMT 1
I agree with you. Terry shouldn't have died like that.
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Post by brockandsable on Apr 13, 2005 0:33:21 GMT 1
I'll start it off with the Terri Shavio (I have no idea how to spell her name) case. Did any of you believe it was nessesary to remove the feeding tube, or was it wrong for the goverment to decide it, and it should have been her parents decision? Honestly, I was glad they pulled the plug. I have selfish tendencies because I am human, but I would never keep any of my relatives as a living vegetable; hooked up to a tube so I am happy. That woman couldn't speak. She couldn't give them signs; she was suffering. Pull the plug and send her on her way. And besides, it's 2005. To think that this life on Earth is the only life you'll ever live or the only place you'll ever exist is foolish. |
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Post by soulreaper on Apr 13, 2005 3:52:41 GMT 1
There was no plug.. they pulled her food and let her starve to death. She didn't need help breathing... just needed food. One of you, go ahead and starve yourself and see what its like. Not too mention the fact that she was showing signs of life other than sitting there like a vegetable. She was responsive to things, but her husband was just a cocksucker that wanted her dead.
He wouldn't allow tests to be performed to see what kind of progress was being made. It was murder protected by law, because the courts allowed heresy, which is technically illegal, but who's gonna go against the courts? Seriously, if you had any doubts about the supposed husband, they should have been completely ripped away when he didn't allow the parents to give her a final goodbye in the end. It was a fucked up situation and unless you really look at the participants of this dramatic happening, its easy to say "I'm glad they pulled that tube."
By the way, if any of you that said you were glad they pulled it, are against the death penalty, you should be slapped numerous times with a dead fish, because lets face it, she was senteced to death in one of the sickest, inhumane ways possible. People on Death Row die in a more humane fashion than what they put that poor lady through.
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Post by Reaper on Apr 13, 2005 4:34:13 GMT 1
People on Death Row die in a more humane fashion than what they put that poor lady through. I was going to write a long, in depth post about how she should have been allowed to die long ago, but Reaper summed up anything I could have said better in this one sentence. |
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Post by brockandsable on Apr 13, 2005 20:26:48 GMT 1
He wouldn't allow tests to be performed to see what kind of progress was being made. It was murder protected by law, because the courts allowed heresy, which is technically illegal, but who's gonna go against the courts? Progress? She was a veggie for over 15 years! It was a useless life and her suffering went on for 15 years too long. If I were in that state, I would want you to end my life as soon as possible. If I cannot contribute to life, go to the gym on my own, go take a walk on my own and am unable to feed myself without the assistance of a "tube", do me in playa. Do me in, because such a life is not worth it. |
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Post by soulreaper on Apr 14, 2005 4:30:38 GMT 1
Progress as in showing signs of life which are documented, which means that this vegetable wasn't as vegetative as you think. People are assuming that all she was doing was laying there and drooling on herself with NO brain activity... BUT her husband wouldn't allow any scans to see if that was true.
You can't assume that somebody is totally toast without proper tests. Those tests were denied, and it irritates me that everybody is so willing to jump on the husbands side as being a samaritan, when he in fact is nothing more than a murderer who used the system to get the job done.
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Post by Cactus on Apr 14, 2005 8:41:05 GMT 1
Again I will say for my own personal belif I am with Elijah, if I cannot look after myself i.e feed myself, go the bathroom, basic functions then I do not want to carry on.
However I can see Reapers point that it is "legal murder", if the had of switched of her ventalitor ( if she was on one )then that is quite quick however to leave some one to starve is wrong.
I personally think she is better dead as having no quality of life for the last 15 years and for the forseeable future as well. But the way her life was ended was wrong, this is why i support euthanasia, one shot of something in the right place and all suffering ends.
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Post by soulreaper on Apr 14, 2005 20:13:16 GMT 1
Personally I wouldn't want to live like that either, but the fact remains, she was forced to suffer (even if you think she didn't, due to her disposition) by starving to death. She wasn't on a ventilator. There was nothing to pull except a feeding tube. There was a small glimmer that MAYBE she could have made some kind of recovery, but it was shot to hell by some dickhead that felt incovienced by her.
If there was any justice in the world, Michael Shaivo would get brain damage and have his feeding tube removed, just so he could go through the same thing he forced his wife to do.
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Post by Gormy on Apr 14, 2005 21:44:13 GMT 1
I havent really followed this case, but my comments were to be it was the most humane thing to do. She suffered, whichever way you put it. I was sure that her husband wanted to end her suffering and that is why he wouldnt allow any further scans etc. However, reading how she was allowed to die is disgraceful. If you do that to a dog, you get prosecuted.
Also the fact he didnt allow her parents to be with her is heartbreaking for them. I dont care how much he hated his in-laws. If I was in that position, I couldnt do it to them. They brought that lady into the world, he should have been legally made to allow them to say goodbye as she left it. The thought of losing your children before you is bad enough, but knowing it is happening and you cant be there to hold her hand, kiss them goodbye and say a prayer for them is inhumane.
Also I have seen an article since then about a man who is paralysed from the neck down, ok not like Terri, who may or may not have been a total vegetable. But he had an implant in his brain, so now all he has to do is think and the cursor on his computer moves. It has also proven to work on a prosthetic hand.
The point I'm trying to make, is maybe if she had lived a little longer, had the scans, maybe we would have had the science to help her.
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Post by Stare on Apr 14, 2005 21:49:34 GMT 1
I'm not saying he didnt love her, but did you listen to the way you described him in teh second paragraph?
The guy is obviously a low-down human being who doestn have a whole lot of emotion, that's all I'm saying.
I agree with Reaper on this . . . so I'm not going to state anything, as he's already said it.
however, the most common phrase I hear is "I wouldn't want to live like that, it was the right move". Fact is, nobody here has been in her position I'm realtively sure, and until you go through it, you have no idea if you'd rather fight for life or just have them pull the plug, or tube.
So, that phrase has no meaning in this argument at all. Also, maybe she wanted to keep fighting, but she didnt have the ability to say so. It sure would suck to have someone pull the tube when you're making progress, which as Reaper said, there are signs that she had made some.
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Post by eCo on Apr 14, 2005 23:05:11 GMT 1
The moment the husband refused to accept the money was the moment I knew he just wanted to end her suffering. Many of are saying how burtal it is to starve the women to death but consider this. Her brain wasn't active, so far as I was concerned, she was already dead. What makes us think, cry, eat, sleep, breath, and states the fact that we are alive? The brain. Living without the brain in tact is just like having a computer without the processor. So Terri's mother pet her, talked to her, and brushed her hair, but that still didn't change the fact how she wasn't concious or ever will be concious. The mother was nothing more than a self-denying moron who was too ignorant to let her daughter go.
Even if her brain was even somewhat intact, it would still make it worse. Then it would be that the women wouldn't be able to clear her throut, scrach herself, or even cough, because her nevous system wasn't able to carry those orders. As for starving herself, yeah that sounded brutal, but was it more brutal than letting her become a vegetable just so she can croak a few years later. Now we have all of these pro-life whiners, bitching about the case, and calling this a culture of death, while the truth is that people really need to face reality.
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Post by soulreaper on Apr 14, 2005 23:15:47 GMT 1
The reality is that you are just some guy that doesn't read the facts, all you see is "vegetable" and "no brain activity." Both of those were inconclusive due to the fact that your hero, the husband, wouldn't allow proper scans or tests. Your arguement fell flat right there. Also the fact that you've neclected to read up on this to find out that she had shown signs of awareness, which equals brain activity, also makes you seem illinformed about the whole thing.
If you think its alright for someone to just rip somebody's food from them and take away the only thing that they needed to survive, because everything else worked fine (heartbeat, breathing function, etc.) then maybe you should starve yourself and see exactly what she went through. Disgraceful that somebody could force a person to die that way. Like I said, it would have been more humane to take her out back, and shoot her in the head.
What happened was a disgusting display of some asshole, who decided he didn't need her around anymore. He didn't take the money, big deal, he killed his wife.
Oh and before you call me pro-life, I'll have you know I like the death penalty and I have no problem with abortion, BUT its people with your same opinions that want to do away with the Death Penalty, yet they support killing this woman... how odd.
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Post by eCo on Apr 18, 2005 0:26:53 GMT 1
New Topic: Spainish Speaking in America
I am sick to death of some racist asshole bitching how some immigrants doesn't know much English. The truth is that most of these hispanics are taking classes to learn English, and many of them tell me that they always get insulted when some fat ass, white racist asshole always turns away from them or say "forget about it", when they are thinking of the right English words to say. Some people are just too intolerant and ignorant to realize that some people just want to live the same kind of life they do.
About everywhere I go, I always see how some upper class white biggot, always turning away from hispanic workers or aviod them in general. From where I live, many people are racist against hispanics inside, wether they are denying it, or they don't even know it. This also leads to sterotypes such as hispanics are always the criminal or they are always lazy and welfare dependent.
I also here from these whiners, saying how they get offended when they hear some Spainish person talking in their own language around them. How they are saying it's ruining the public image of the USA. This alone just prooves that they are bigots. Also, it's really none of their business when someone speaks their own language, and just because some intolerant asshole is around, doesn't mean that these people should speak English, as if this one person was royalty. These are the same people who also complain how they hear "press 1 for English and 2 for Spainish", and they even make a big deal out of that.
Tell me you people agree with me here.
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Post by Stare on Apr 18, 2005 2:06:09 GMT 1
I agree with you and it is sickening how some people are not tolerant and patient with people of a different race. If I, as an American, went to a country where everyone spoke I language I did not speak, I would probably be annoying as well, but I would hope they would be tolerant.
HOWEVER, as always, I do have to point out your stereotypes, Eco. Please, try to refrain from talking about how it sickens you how people stereotype other individuals right after you accuse those "fat ass, upper class, white bigots" of categorizing the Mexicans/Spanish speaking people. I hate to tell you this, buddy, it's not just the upper-class that does it, but you throw your argument out the window again and begin to stereotype the "upper-class".
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Post by soulreaper on Apr 18, 2005 2:08:31 GMT 1
I live in California, this has to be one has got me on the fence. It bugs me that theres a "national language" of English thats being ignored for the simple fact that some these immigrants that you speak of, are in fact illegal and taking advantage of the systems flaws such as welfare. Which means some guy, illegal lets say, came here, find a place to live, doesn't even bother going to the simple classes to get citizenship... well guess who's paying for him to live here. Thats right Me, you, and anybody that pays their taxes like they have too. And whether you like it or not, its well documented that this is a problem. Hell last I heard they were actually going to enforce a time period one could be on welfare to something like 5 years.... If somebody can't find a suitable job that can pay the bills after 5 years, well then they are obviously not trying, I've got a good example where they can work for a start too later.
In the off chance you meet up with a legal immigrant, chances are they already know enough english to get them by. I don't really mind if these people speak the language with their friends/family/hispanics, thats cool. But where I do have a problem with it is when it starts fluttering into my everyday life in favor of or as an alternate language. This example can be easily found if you come here, hell I'll take you there myself.
Theres supermarket, thats decided that they are pretty much a hispanic Supermarket now named FoodsCo. Look at the signs that tell you what down the aisle, its like an English to Spanish dictionary. Why? The problem isn't really that they've decided to do this but that they have just as many asian people and white and black people and green, and purple and orange.. etc. It bugs me because sooner or later the these aisles might as well have a door listing whats in it in every language they can find.....
but the funny thing is.. IF they are/were taking those classes you just claimed they were taking, than there would be no need for it because the foods/products used would be basic words taught along with numbers, letters and sentence structure. I've yet to see and Asian person, who's an immigrant, come up to me and ask me a question in HIS native tongue. They at least attempt to get the point accross, and are mildly successful.
To get to your point about them being "criminals" well me and my girl know somebody that fits the mold, illegal, and a thief. So THATS where that particular streretype comes from. Not some "fat, white, racist asshole" Like you want, but because there are a fair amount of them out there to produce said stereotype.
Dude get off your high horse already. You've already complained about the whole of the nation being racist, now its uppity, fat, white people... Kinda tells me that YOU are the racist one, just covering it up by shooting the bullet elsewhere. Good job.
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Post by stocko on Apr 18, 2005 8:51:19 GMT 1
i dont normally get involved in eco's rants, but we have this very problem in liverpool
we are inundated with immigrants, the council here ever built a huge housing estate just for somalian families.
the way i see it, if you live in a different country to where you are from, learn the fucking language, at least enough to get you by!
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Post by Scream on Apr 18, 2005 14:44:30 GMT 1
I agree and I think for the most part they try. My only pet peev is this. I was in a supermarket and two Japanese guys were walking by me. I had the feeling they were watching me but it didn't bother me. They started ranting in Japanese and then laughing. One I thought they were making fun of my wildly good looks and two I thought they might have said something about my momma. Regardless I walked away with distain in my eyes. If looks could tell a story they would have known that if they kept it up I would have gone 3 stooges on them. I can't stand languages that I don't understand. CAN'T STAND EM!!!!
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Post by Stare on Apr 19, 2005 0:34:03 GMT 1
well, them learning English wouldnt have solved that problem, as they could've still made fun of you in their native tongue
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Post by Trent Matsunoshin on Apr 19, 2005 1:11:06 GMT 1
To live in California you practically gotta know 2 languages.
Most of the rest of the world's population speaks multiple languages, why can't Americans?
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Post by Stare on Apr 19, 2005 1:14:42 GMT 1
I speak spanish, and they tell you in School/escuela that it's important cause the spanish speakign people are growing in numbers.
But, I do think they should attemt to learn the language if they are going to live here. I mean, if you go to Russia, would you expect everyone to try and speak English to you?
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Post by brockandsable on Apr 19, 2005 2:43:30 GMT 1
I speak spanish, and they tell you in School/escuela that it's important cause the spanish speakign people are growing in numbers. It's like Karma or something; the land was taken from people of latino heritage and now it's returning to that. Go figure.  |
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